AXIOM Beta Roadmap
Submitted by getzi on Wed, 07/22/2015 - 16:30
Higher Volumes - Lower Prices
Good news everyone! As the crowd funding campaign reached significantly more supporters for the AXIOM Beta than originally anticipated we renegotiated the prices of key components in the Beta with our suppliers. (We are now in the final stages of component selection.) The result is that even though the complexity of the designs, the number of boards and general number of components increased (as we added more features and modularity to the Beta, based on supporter feedback) the new Beta hardware will likely be slightly cheaper. See this detailed cost estimate. But this also poses a new challenge: We need to guarantee these high volume orders - meaning that basically every voucher holder needs to participate here - even those who wanted to wait for the AXIOM Gamma.
3 Phase Payment System
Ordering 500 sensors will cost roughly twice as much as we received in the entire crowd funding campaign so we need everyone's help to get everyone's parts. We want to create a transparent payment plan that only involves money transfers when the funding is actually needed. Also it is quite a challenge to calculate costs 100% accurately without doing small refunds or asking for additional small payments after the camera shipped, so we came up with a 3 Phase Payment concept (that each voucher holder should “step” through) which should solve all these problems.
| Phase 1 Payment | Phase 2 Payment | Phase 3 Payment |
| Prepayment so we can buy essential components at 500+ quantity | Funds to build your Beta (reach 80% of camera value) | Balance payment to reach 100% at-cost - (~20% rest payment) |
| soon | when camera is ordered | when camera ships |
| ~ 1000 € | ~ 700€ | ~ 400€ |
Google Doc - Let's research the best payment methods together
Remember it’s always possible to upgrade your hardware to the most recent version at-cost - any time and as often as you want to. Note that components like the Microzed, image sensor or lens bayonet rings (which basically comprise Phase 1) will not require any upgrades.
If this proposal is not well received in the voucher holder community we need to decide on a Plan B for which there are several options:
- accept higher per-unit prices for everyone
- open up the missing number of slots to reach the volume order deal
AXIOM Beta Development Roadmap
We recently received some emails asking when the “finished AXIOM Beta model” will be available so we wanted to clarify here that - don’t be shocked - there is no “finished” model. We will keep improving the hardware and software in all areas we and you deem necessary so the Beta will constantly evolve and improve. At some point the hardware revisions will get rather sparse though - maybe that would be a time when we say its “pretty much finished” but there is no black and white: unfinished/finished, rather it's a vivid gradient color range. The idea is that we explain in depth where we currently are and what the latest AXIOM Beta model does/does not do and then you voucher holders can decide if you want to get your unit (at cost at any stage) or wait. Please understand that it's very hard to predict exactly when each stage will be reached especially the further we predict the future. The only estimation we can provide is that we think the Full Enclosure (and so the end of the timeline listed below) should be reached by the end of the year.
Things that are final already:
- Image Sensor Selection (CMV12000)
- Sensor Board PCB
- Microzed
- Lens mount: passive e-mount + Nikon or Canon adapter
- AC power supply
Things that are planned to be improved/replaced/added:
- Enclosure
- Interface Board will be replaced to double bandwidth
- Beta Main Board
- Battery mount power supply
- Power Board will be replaced to allow dynamic reference voltage changing
- Active lens mount options
- Internal UV/IR filter
- Modules, Shields, AXIOM Remote
Sample Footage
Knowing that there is immediate interest from the people who have backed our campaign about the camera’s moving image capabilities, we will make our best efforts to show first footage of moving images as recorded by the AXIOM Beta as soon as the first Early Betas are assembled.
What else do I need to use an AXIOM Beta?
As we also received emails asking about what else is required in terms of accessories we wanted to give a proper overview. If you want to shoot moving images AXIOM Beta will essentially need an external HDMI recorder and a controller (this can be a PC or laptop or a smartphone & tablet - if you use a wireless router you can use WIFI for camera access). The dedicated AXIOM Remote will be developed once the essentials for the camera are completed. And there are the obvious things you will need like: a tripod, a lens and cables.
AXIOM Beta Development Status Update
There have been some minor issues with the boards we created for testing the actual AXIOM Beta hardware in an automated process and we want to make 100% sure that the Early Beta works as intended, so we are doing another round of PCBs which we just received and are now being assembled and tested.
and the AXIOM project is certified Open Hardware by
.
64 Comments
What is the current estimate
What is the current estimate on when you will move from Axiom Beta to Gamma?
The AXIOM Gamma development
The AXIOM Gamma development has a strict timeline from the EU until Q3 2016.
will the off-board HDMI
will the off-board HDMI Atomos Shogun be compatible with the Beta? When will the PL mount be available? And for those of us living outside of Europe how difficult will it be for the hardware upgrades? Will we be required to ship our Beta back and forth to the EU (which is time and $$ consuming)?
The HDMI output will be
The HDMI output will be standard compatible so the Shogun should not have trouble to understand that, we have a Shogun at hand and will test the Beta with it and report results with any external recorders we can get our hands on. 1080p output will be available first, 2160p will follow.
The fastest way to attach a PL lens is probably to use an e-mount PL adapter, this should already work with the Early Betas. A native PL mount might follow if there is demand inside the community - as the AXIOM Gamma will be equipped with a PL mount by default this development effort might be directly reusable with the Beta as well.
As the PCBs are stacked on top of each other replacing individual boards is actually very straight forward. Any enclosure version is and will be designed with repair-ability in mind and will allow accessing the camera internals easily (no glued parts, only basic tools required, etc.). So if you ever successfully assembled an IKEA cupboard you should have no trouble with the Beta hardware. We will provide detailed step-by-step guides but also encourage people to locally help each other out, we also offer sending the camera to us and performing the upgrade for you (at-cost for voucher holders or probably entirely for free if it involves just replacing a board or something similarly simple).
Can you list here (and
Can you list here (and ideally update the road map image above) to give the planned dates of each subsequent step in the roadmap please.
While we understand that
While we understand that everybody wants this please understand that its almost impossible to give any accurate estimates here so instead of providing dates that will not work out and that we will have to constantly move around in the end we decided to explain where we are and what lies ahead instead.
The only rough estimate we can provide is that the timeline as displayed in the article goes until the end of the year if things go well.
I like the phased approach to
I like the phased approach to costs. It is a balance to address production costs vs. keeping Axiom beta purchasers happy on progress. By getting the phase one costs to address the most expensive cost (sensor) and allowing people to continue payment when they want the camera (I will be waiting to later in the year for full enclosure), creates the balance needed to keep this going cost effectively. I am IN for this approach and hope all Beta customers are as well to keep the costs down. Thanks for the update.
Great, thanks!
Great, thanks!
From the text, it is not that
From the text, it is not that clear, what the proposal is.
So we are talking about us (as voucher holders) basically advancing the final purchase money in installments over the next year or so? Basically financially committing to redeeming our vouchers at some point in the future?
I (as a voucher holder) want to retain the option of backing out of the deal. I sunk 300 bucks into a token of faith. It seems bad form to now ask for even more (as well as I can understand the financial realities of developing a small run of cameras). If the final product turns out to be bad value for the money, I (at worst) lose those 300 bucks. THAT was the gamble I was willing to make.
What now?
Well, first and foremost,
Well, first and foremost, AXIOM is a community project and the AXIOM Beta a development kit, so our goal here is not a "final product" as you put it, we aim to provide the means to advance with FOSS/OH movie making and cameras in general.
That said, of course you can decide not to row and wait till the ship reaches the shore, it will certainly make it harder for others (higher prices, more effort) but I'm pretty sure we'll get there with or without you. I wouldn't expect your fellow voucher holders to be too happy about your "decision" and of course, as you will not be able to participate in the volume deals, the parts for your camera, and thus the entire AXIOM Beta, will probably cost a lot more than necessary.
So, now it's up to you to decide what path you want to go, row with us or just stand there and watch ...
Best,
Herbert
When you send us the Phase 1
When you send us the Phase 1 money we will order your parts with this money. So it's not an advance, basically we acquire components and store them for you to put it into your camera unit as next step. It's your property - you can also choose to source all parts yourself and send them to us for assembly (or even assemble them yourself) - it will cost you much more than when we pool our orders together though and be rather cumbersome but it would be an option after all.
We are aware that proposing this payment concept is a major step with wide implication for backers our team and our production of the cameras but that's why we want to discuss it here with you openly. We want to understand your perspectives, thoughts and concerns.
And if you are skeptical towards the entire camera and consider your "300 bucks sunk into a token of faith" as much as you want to contribute in total - then thats fine as well. You are not obliged to actually order your camera unit at cost. You have to be aware though that if you at a later point do decide to get your camera we cant promise the at-cost terms will be exactly the same. There might be another option to pool the resources together but maybe there wont and you will have to accept higher prices for acquiring your components.
Can the "final product turn out to be bad value for the money" ? It will turn out to be EXACTLY the value of the money as you voucher holders get it at-cost and before anyone else :)
How is the original money
How is the original money deposited during the crowd funding factored into the cost?
The money donated during
The money donated during crowd-funding went/is going 100% towards the development of the AXIOM Beta and is not a down payment. In return those who contributed towards covering the development are entitled to get their AXIOM Beta at cost and before any retail sales start.
Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for the clarification.
I like this System. Not
I like this System. Not everyone can pay 2k€ at once.
Could you ask for a better price for 500+ of all parts in Phase 1 or update the spreadsheet if you have already?
Would it make sense to rent an early Beta for a week or month to test? Then we need not so much parts that will be replaced but many people has the option to test it and provide feedback.
Are Payments with Bitcoin possible in Phase 1? I would use it.
We could have a poll who wants a hdmi-cable or other accessories to buy in batch. Would be cheaper then buying just one.
Also, the Video is absolutely amazing!
Good work.
Glad you agree with the plan!
Glad you agree with the plan!
The cost estimate already includes the Phase 1 components with 500 pieces quantities.
Sending an Early Beta around for people to try would be an interesting idea, we should see how many people would be interested in this.
If someone helps create a guide for bitcoin payments (both for the sender and for us to convert it back to Euros) we might give it a shot.
When will Phase 1 Payment
When will Phase 1 Payment begin- do you have already a date or a month? And how exactly will the Axiom Beta be controlled? Will you have the option to controll it via bluetooth with a app or how will you adjust the options?
In my opinion, keeping the price as low as possible is the best option to make every funder happy. So I agree with the 3 Phase Payment System. And another question is, in which year you plan to finish the Axiom Gamma?
Thank you, you're a great Team!
We are currently collecting
We are currently collecting information how to send money from different parts of the world for Phase 1 with giving least possible amounts to banks and payment providers. As soon as we have a feasible suggestion that works for most of the backers we will give green light.
Regarding the AXIOM Beta control options please take a look at the end of https://apertus.org/axiom-beta-roadmap
The AXIOM Gamma EU project lasts until Q3 2016, so the earliest possible release date is end of 2016.
The 3-phase payment scheme
The 3-phase payment scheme works for me.
I also second the idea of bulk purchasing accessories, even hdmi recorders perhaps ?
Great thanks!
Great thanks!
It would indeed be interesting to learn how many people from the community have HDMI recorders already and how many would be interested in purchasing a new one. We can try to see if manufacturers would be willing resell through us but this would be a path with wide reaching implications, we would need to resell all HDMI recorder brands on the market otherwise we would loose our in independence.
I personally don't mind the
I personally don't mind the instalment proposal and would be happy to pre-pay. But I also realise that this feels like a financial risk for some. Can you make this an official poll to see what the community thinks? Maybe you can offer a better deal for those who are willing to chip in more in advance? Good luck with all!
Good idea, will do.
Good idea, will do.
If we are voucher holder, but
If we are voucher holders, but want to wait for gamma, do we go through all three phases or only the first two and then wait some more for 2016 ?
Voucher holders who want to
Voucher holders who want to wait for the AXIOM Gamma are asked to only participate in the Phase 1 payments as the image sensor we purchase with Phase 1 funds will be directly useable in your AXIOM Gamma.
The original estimate for the
The original estimate for the camera was closer to 3,000 Euros, so I'm liking the new figures. It helps to show vendors that you will be buying from them in bulk and can negotiate better rates. Just tell me when and where to send the money!
Thanks, will do :)
Thanks, will do :)
You should definitely put up
You should definitely put up a poll for the crowdfunding backers (via E-Mail with UID or on Kickstarter if they provide it) to have a clear image of the opinion on your proposition.
I think your financial approach is very sane and laudable. Let's see how the community turns out to react to that.
Agreed, we will send a survey
Agreed, we will send a survey to backers soon.
The installment approach
The installment approach seems like a rational idea. But I also understand people's doubts about the product.
I have a couple of questions -
1. Is it possible to have an image sensor other than the one we pledged for?
2. What is the status on the 4k recording solution that was offered as a stretch goal?
3. Will the new build have manual controls on the camera itself or should we be buying the remote control for this. If we do not want to buy the remote, how good is the android app that you promised for controlling the video functions. Will this have all the features available on the remote?
Also the suggestion on the poll seems like a great idea.
Thanks
Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for the feedback!
1. currently only the CMV12000 is supported. others will follow once the rest of the camera development is complete
2. This will also be done once the core Beta components are finished - we also applied for an additional grant last week to make the "AXIOM Bridge" as we now call it more powerful and universal - more details about this soon.
3. The camera itself will not have any buttons or controls, you either need a laptop or smartphone/tablet to connect to it or later on the AXIOM Remote will add the buttons/dials functionality that you can attach directly to the camera or use remotely. Ultimately we want to offer access to ALL controls through the webinterface as well as the AXIOM remote. Of course the AXIOM Remote will have a smaller display than any laptop has so it might have to provide simplified versions of complex visualization but that should just relate to the ice cream topping of GUI related features not the essential camera control.
Was also curious to know the
Was also curious to know the low-light performance of the camera.
Thanks
Magic Lantern measured the
Magic Lantern measured the sensitivity of the sensor to be in the range of 200 - 800 ISO depending on analog gain settings.
PayPal is a great option. I
PayPal is a great option. I believe if you send the money via "Friends and Family" there is no acceptance fee. The legality and issues that may arise from that is a different issue.
I do like the three tier payment play system, and I hope that for those who haven't been checking their e-mails or have yet to respond, that we can somehow contact them and persuade them to support it as well. I too was sketched about the tier system but after some time of thinking it through, I felt OK about it in addition to the savings that made me feel more comfortable.
Some questions and concerns that I had are...What has Magic Lantern contributed so far in this project and what are they currently helping with now and next for the Axiom camera? Also is there any way for the beta unit enclosure to look closer to the enclosure of the Gamma unit? The Gamma unit is gorgeous! The Axiom Beta, although a beta camera, could use help in the aesthetics department. :)
Also, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a question asked earlier about whether or not we wanted to have a vertical or horizontal set up in regards to the Axiom camera? What was the feedback given so far? I say, having it vertical would be cool.
In addition, as we anticipate the release of the Beta and Gamma units, are there proposals or research being done for newer sensors and hardware features/upgrades? As we get closer and anticipate the release of Beta and Gamma units, newer cameras are coming out such as the Sony A7R II with high megapixel resolution, 4K and an attractive price point. The Kinefinity and their KineMax 6K camera and Canon with their newly released 5DS and 5DSR + Magic Lantern. In order to stay relevant and attractive to both current voucher holders and prospective Axiom customers, what is being done to be attractive and relevant against other camera models that are currently available and the ones that are yet but soon to be released? I think building confidence in any hesitant voucher holder, other than the big savings they will all benefit from, will help those hesitant voucher holders back the 3 phase payment system.
From my understanding Paypal
From my understanding Paypal does not provide buyer protection and the ability to dispute a payment sent to family and friends but we have indeed should research the full implications of this option. Paypal will still charge exchange rate and cross border transfers fees though depending on where the money is coming from (credit card or Paypal balance).
Terms of Service:
4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#4
Magic Lantern does software but no hardware so as soon as they will receive their Early Beta units I see the magic starting to sparkle :)
I am sure once the Beta hardware starts to circulate there will be many enclosure options (also from within the community). We will first focus on features and functionality and then on aesthetics.
The vertical Beta survey concluded that only 25% of people would be interested in an upright AXIOM Beta so we are not prioritizing it currently. Also considering that the Beta is actually tiny and looks a lot bigger in mos renders than it really is so the orientation makes less difference in the end...
As we made/intensified contact with several sensor manufacturers, at NAB and from then on, there are several new upcoming sensors that would be great candidates to become future AXIOM Beta/Gamma modules in the far future but before we focus on such endeavors we want to finish the core AXIOM Beta hardware and get it into the hands of our backers.
This payment idea is good,
This payment idea is good, but I got to say my confidence level is very low especially comments like "We will get there with or without you" doesn't seem nice after a whole bunch of people like us backed you up. I hope Beta team understand what I mean.
Anyways,
If I were to buy Beta, Can I still buy Gamma at Cost?
If so, is there an approximate figure for Gamma yet?
Thanks
If you get the Beta with your
If you get the Beta with your voucher we offer an upgrade of your Beta to the Gamma reusing all Beta components that we can for assembling your AXIOM Gamma. This does not mean you get the entire AXIOM Gamma at-cost.
There is no price estimate of the AXIOM Gamma yet as development just started in March.
Just to clarify, in the
Just to clarify, in the original context "we" was referring to "the community" and "you" was referring to the individual not interested in the community.
"We will get there with or
"We will get there with or without you" coming off as mean is probably a lost in translation moment. Don't forget the majority (perhaps all) of the Apertus team do not use English as their native language. The Apertus team has been very open and honest about all decisions and consistently been willing to take input for everybody including non backers. I've been following the project since the Elphel days and have never experienced anything but kind hearted people interested in making the best possible open source camera community.
My personal interpretation of the phrase is that they are saying don't feel obligated to purchase your beta if you are not completely happy with the purchasing terms. Your decision to not go forward with the beta purchase will not put the project at risk so don't feel bad about it.
Regarding downpayment "soon"
Regarding downpayment "soon" for pre-buying a sensor *now* for an Axiom Gamma, which will be comming by end of 2016, and more probably by begin of 2017, it seems like a very long electronic components storage time. Chances are that by then you will have better *and* cheaper sensor options, espescially in low-light conditions. Plus we would bear unnecessary storage damages and obsolescence risks.
Thus I'm wondering if for people aiming for an Axiom Gamma, their first downpayment should not happen after the end of the EU Axiom Gamma grant, "just in time" for Gamma production ?
I do appreciate your efforts to bring the price down, but I would find it strange to do a downpayment earlier than for the necessary volume-delivery time for a given product model.
So to summarize you find it
So to summarize you find it problematic that we allow people who got a voucher for the AXIOM Beta to wait for the AXIOM Gamma?
Also, what is the volume
Also, what is the volume discount if you reach 500 sensors ? is it really big ? Also it's strange that the price is same for quantity 1 or 100. Looks like sensors were not negociatable ? Maybe now that you have other interested parties from NAB, their wilingness to negociate will be better ?
Another idea: In my electronics manufacturing past, I have discovered that asking for a free quote, including components, from one or two potential medium- or large-sized contract-manufacturers has shown me savings possibility of 30-50% on components, thanks to their much higher buying power, and also to the negociation skills of their purchasers. That then allows you to either subcontract to them the manufacturing, or to use their quote as a negociation base for your direct purchases. Maybe a worthwhile approach at zero cost ?
Ah thanks for the reminder, I
Ah thanks for the reminder, I updated the image sensor volume prices in the cost estimate linked in the article.
I added the link to a Google
I added the link to a Google doc to the article that anyone can edit: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PPQ1Cmd8sC8EAt-MyqVqNSld8g1HbXkJ8M5k...
Please help us find the cheapest payment methods from your country, together we shall prevail :)
3 payment system fine by me -
3 payment system fine by me - payment method via Paypal please.
I'm all for the 3 musketeers
I'm all for the 3 musketeers model! I would though like to see a slightly more significant skeleton, atleast with tripod mount or provision for an Arri or similar rosette upon which to attempt to rout, print, machine, help develop a useable body.
Personally I'm more interested in capturing moving images than playing with 0's and 1's and the sooner the better.
I'm happy to try and make something work but am far from clear how one might add functioning buttons/ wheels/ dials to the minimal Beta we have seen so far???? Or would it all work remotely? Keep up the stimulating work!
The skeleton has a tripod
Great, thanks for the feedback!
The skeleton has a tripod mount, it does not have a rosette as that would suggest the skeleton is meant to be taken out into the field which it is not :)
Controlling the camera works all remotely as described at the end of https://apertus.org/axiom-beta-roadmap
I've read the link referring
I've read the link referring to the Axiom Remote but a few things need clarification
If possible, please answer the following regarding the Remote itself :
a. are there available exact dimensions for the Axiom Remote (width - height - depth) and weight ?
if not yet, then please give an estimation
b. will the Axiom Remote be able to be mounted (or screwed) on a rig ?
(which will hypothetically surround the main camera body of the Axiom Beta)
c. supposing that the Axiom Remote will be in need of a battery to work,
then please give an idea of the kind of battery and how this battery will and in what place of the Remote be mounted
d. is the Axiom Remote going to be "released" the same "date" as Axiom Beta ?
e. any idea about its price ?
f. and finally it would be interesting to see perhaps a rough sketch or still image of how this remote will be connected with the main camera body, in order to get a glimpse of the two units together
Thanks a lot
a. no dimensions - it will be
a. no dimensions - it will be the size of small smartphone roughly
b. yes
c. if the AXIOM remote is powered through the cable that connects it to the camera or if it also has its own battery slot or built in is not decided yet
d. no - the AXIOM Remote will be developed after the Beta
e. no - but all components it will use are rather affordable
f. with a cable
Thanks, all cleared.
Thanks, all cleared.
\m/..\m/ on a completely
\m/..\m/ on a completely different note can i use the image sensor as a source of entropy with a lead body cap ?
The ADC variation per row and
The ADC variation per row and column is unique with every image sensor and the noise itself is random anyway so I guess that could work, Herbert will be able to give more insight :)
thank you !
thank you !
\m/
\m/
Definitely!
Even better would be to get some kind of radioactive element (e.g. americium 241 from a smoke detector) and put that in front of the otherwise darkened sensor. Radioactive decay is perfectly random and you can probably harvest a lot of entropy there.
Three tiered payment system
Three tiered payment system fine by me too.
Re. Axiom Phase 1 Payment: Just used Transferwise (https://transferwise.com) for the first time. Didn't do exhaustive research, but they claim to offer a £35.82 (56 USD / 51 EUR approx.) saving on the transaction and the money should arrive by by Tuesday July 28.
GBP to Euro using a Visa debit card from a Scottish bank (UK banking system - i.e currently a EU member outwith the Eurozone) and the IBAN no. of the Belgian account.
GBP, EUR, AUD, NOK, SEK and DKK payments are all possible with this method. Looks like there are other (slightly slower) options outlined in their support pages.
Hope that helps.
Thanks, I added transferwise
Thanks, I added transferwise to the google doc. The fees they claim sound incredible low (0.5%) so I am suspicious to say the least but if someone who used the service could shed some light on them we should definitely consider suggesting that option.
It sounds very strange in
It sounds very strange in your payment document about invoicing:
Quote:
"Do backers get an invoice?
The official invoice will be issued with completion of Phase 3 Payment as only then we will know the total cost of your AXIOM Beta unit."
A lot of your backers are freelancers or have registered companies. How can we send you our money legally from our company bank account so that we taste towards our tax in our deduct?
It sounds a little bit like "schwarzgeld" / dirty money without guarantee.
When you / apertus want again money from us backers, make it legal and serious against european tax law. So, you have to give us invoices so that we have a document in our hand that you have at the end give us a working product.
The time of collecting money from an crowdfounding is now over. For all the fun stuff you are creating like heavy metal music videos, please allow me to say that you must be now a company with guarantee and working finance management, specially when you want again our support and more money.
Hope for your understanding for this critical words and i hope to get a feedback from you guys.
Thanks a lot.
Check the FAQ entry after "Do
Check the FAQ entry after "Do backers get an invoice?" as I think this is exactly what you were concerned about.
Thanks for the open and good
Thanks for the open and good communication. I for one am happy to pay now and look forward to investing time and money exploring and hopefully contributing to the development of the more finished Beta and ultimately the Gamma. Early adopters of an Arri or a Sony pay more than someone buying last years model BUT they have that time to earn money from the product,...... With our model though, those that cash in their voucher now will it seems actually be paying far more than those who decide to wait. The new boards, enclosure, battery mounts etc will be additional albeit at cost costs, from what I can see this could easily be €500/€600 and probably much more. I think that the Beta model payments should reflect that reality more fairly, both morally and to persuade waverers. Perhaps with limited free updates/swaps of key board components like high speed, battery and ergonomic developments enclosure, recorder mounts etc... You already have a list of those that supported the kick starter project first and you already have a three tiered system where some people bought in later or after the end of the kick starter. This was the original model with places offered to those lower down the list and still seems the fairest.
Thanks for the honest
Thanks for the honest feedback, its much appreciated.
Don't forget that people getting the hardware early will then also have more influence on shaping what the camera will become as they participate in the development circle that at this point will consist of fewer people than later on. If someone waits until the very end what he/she will get is a device with most decisions set in stone already. Not a bad thing per se but early adopters might benefit more from making sure their camera is fitting their needs and projects already which in return can mean they benefit sooner and stronger from the customizations - also commercially if they can utilize the camera in their business already. In the end that's a common "open source" thing (I wouldn't go as far as declaring it a problem) - it enables you to be "standing on the shoulders of others". The longer you wait the more you get "for free" - the more you benefit from the work of others.
Do you have an idea how we could even out the risk/benefit/price more evenly/fairly? I am not sure if limiting the number of hardware upgrades per voucher is a good path here as it would only encourage everyone to wait even longer to get their Betas.
I wasn't advocating limiting
I wasn't advocating limiting anyones access to upgrades, my mistake if it sounded like that. Quite the opposite, I was talking about us being mutually supportive.
You are all leading by example which is one of the great things about the project though presumably as the beta work progresses and you move towards selling a mature product and hopefully making profits from it your herculean efforts will eventually be rewarded?
Possibly I've missed the point of Open source? But I don't really agree with the influence argument. Good as it maybe to have a hand in shaping the camera in small ways, (clip for sun glasses? Go faster stripes? Weather proofing? HDMI vs 6G-SDI? ) I'm sure most of us voted for the 4k Beta option based on the balance of potential capabilities, (sensitivity, speed, dof, price) promoted at the beginning. We all signed up to largely the same thing in terms of frame rates, remotes, battery power, mounts etc.
Surely it is in all our interests to incentivise early adopters atleast to the point where the initial design criteria had been reached or nearly reached so everyone ends up with something like the tool they originally backed?
I feeI it is in everybody's best interests that early adopters don't end up paying for development and testing, providing feedback then paying again to keep up with the hardware revisions they've helped generate as this is surely a disincentive to attain our goals both with the Beta, the Gamma and beyond.
Ideas, hmmm well I have no idea of the technical challenges involved in upgrading boards to achieve the initial Beta 1 objectives nor the Axiom Beta 11 objectives, but imagine only a few components will be added or upgraded??? Could early adopters return early board versions to be recycled/updated so they have the same or similar potential as the boards available to those later on? Would that be possible? /cheaper? or does this involve difficult expensive reflow work?
> making profits from it your
> making profits from it your herculean efforts will eventually be rewarded?
I things go well that would be great :)
> We all signed up to largely the same thing in terms of frame rates, remotes, battery power, mounts etc.
You mean that we are still limited by some hardware elements - of course - no programmer can write a software that adds more RAM to his computer - but there are still a lot of area that can be expanded/extended and that involves the official team as much as the developer community and those who do not develop but provide ideas and test and debug new builds that other developers created.
Also with a very FPGA design as we are using (you define the hardware in software) - adding more RAM by writing software actually becomes a reality (still within some limitations of course)....
Making voucher holders who acquire an Early Beta for development pay even less than at-cost (and for subsequent upgrades) would be an interesting idea indeed. Obviously we can't sponsor many cameras that way but for a selected few this is indeed a good idea. Another idea that comes to mind is that when people upgrade certain boards and return the outdated ones to us we could provide those old boards to developers who contribute significantly to the project for free.
Board upgrades will most likely involve a redesigned PCB which need to be assembled from scratch.
Beside the image sensor and the FPGA on the microzed (which are the most expensive components) there are only a few chips where recycling them would be feasible. Unfortunately those that could be interesting are the larger chips that are most tricky to unsolder as they have a lot of pins :)
But wherever it is possible to reuse components from returned boards we will definitely consider it.
Is my €350 refundable in any
Is my €350 refundable in any way?
Hi Roger
Hi Roger
Please get in touch with us via email: https://apertus.org/contact
Well done team, you ought to
Well done team, you ought to be congratulated for building this amazing community and getting the project this far.
I jumped in on the second round of crowdfunding vouchers, for the S35 global shutter sensor, after hearing about the project from RedSharkNews. At the time I was thinking it may make an interesting modular/franken camera as I have most of the components to build around it (shoulder rig, battery distributor, sound preamp, ext recorder, lenses, matte box etc). But to be perfectly honest, I was happy to support the project with no physical returns. I'm a fan of Open Source and truly believe that the social economy needs to change the future of world economics if we are to see people - especially in developing countries - reach some sort of social, economic and health equality. Anyway, enough of the rant (I could imagine lots of interesting conversations must take place in the Apertus labs), I'll get to the point.
So much has happened in the cinema camera world in the last 12 months, especially when you look at BMD. They've really change the 4K landscape and are making it more affordable than ever. I mean, Micro Studio Camera 4K for US$1,295. Wow! URSA Mini 4K for US$2,995. But the difference is obvious; those other camera brands are not Open Source... and that is your special sauce. And in reality, I don't think many people backed Axiom just because they wanted a cheap 4K camera, there's much more to it than that. There's the sense of community, modularity, transparency and upgradability that simply does not exist anywhere else.
But with all this recent change I now, like many others no doubt, are probably more interested in what the Gamma may offer than the Beta - in pure camera ownership terms. It has a more 'future proof' and 'user friendly' appeal, and really has the potential to become the people's 'A' camera of choice.
I think the three payment plan is a great option if you are a Beta adopter and really want to jump in and shape the design and direction. I know it's a long way off, and you have a lot on your plate already, but what are your plans for the development approach to the Gamma camera? More specifically, as a crowd backer (of the Beta I realise), are there incentives for me to stick around and support the Gamma? Will you provide another voucher offer round for Gamma?
I'm willing to support the development of the Gamma in the same way I did the Beta; a donation to change. Even though the selfish in me thinks, "at some point I really want a camera," the generous in me thinks, "well, it's a terrific cause and everyone's a winner if we're contributing to change." But my feeling is that the sheer number of people that will engage with this stage of the Apertus journey may be vastly more than previous stages; and this can only be a good thing, especially for adaptability, affordability, and the Open Source world in general.
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